Timbo
Total Posts: 686
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09-15-04 05:27 PM - Post#35567
I wrote not too long ago about a recurring, seemingly accelerating shoulder injury. Having just read the new interview with Dave where he mentions massage, I thought I would share my success with this treatment. My chiropractor has always recommended massage to supplement his treatments and I had a good deep tissue massage about three years ago. I thought, well that felt good and my back feels better and that was that.
The club where I work has a full spa with all the bells and whistles. For my birthday last month my boss bought me an hour massage. I had been putting off consulting any PT (or doctor!) about my shoulder for fear of bad news. I got to the massage table and told the therapist about my shoulder pain. He worked some on my back and glutes and then moved onto my troublesome shoulder. He spent about half an hour on my shoulder, which was full of adhesions and tighter than a drum. Well, that night I slept like a baby without any pillow to hold my arm up. The next day my shoulder was not even sore.
I have been going now once a week for a couple of weeks and my shoulder feels 90% improved (good thing I get a discount!). The therapist agrees with me that it is probably an overuse injury (duh!) I have permanently added a lot of shoulder warmup (especially external rotation) before any workout (thanks everyone for solid advice). Dumbell pressing from flat to military are virtually pain free, I just have to avoid lateral movements most of the time, performing them only intermittantly and with lighter weights. And of course, the old rule applies; if it hurts don't do it. I even bench pressed last Saturday, although I paid a minor price for it that night. So if anyone is having shoulder problems maybe give this a try. I am psyched that mine feels so much better.....Timbo
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The Judge
Total Posts: 16490
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Congratulations, Timbo! Just be careful and don't let your enthusiasm overtake your brain. You may want to look into the "Seven Minute Rotator Cuff Solution." It is a great little book that really helped me with post-surgery therapy and healing. It also helps prevent future problems.
Judge John
"You cannot help men permanently by doing for them what they could and should do for themselves." - Abraham Lincoln
"I live, I lift, I ache, I am." - Dave Draper
"Moderation assures mediocrity -- nice, safe. Mediocrity is for the mediocre -- simple, okay. The intense rule; the mediocre follow." - Dave Draper
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DavidB
Total Posts: 142
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I have experienced the same relief from the myotherapy I started a month ago , which is very similiar to the deep massage. Dumbell presses were about the same as the spanish inquisition but now I can enjoy them again. What a relief
| you can't stop getting old but you can slow down growing up |
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Anonymous
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That book was a true blessing for me. It is really important to warm
those shoulders up with those exercises. It is part of my almost daily early
morning stretching. I do it even on days I won't be lifting.
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hershey
Total Posts: 2
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I've had recurring shoulder problems for years and finally found short-term relief through very deep tissue massage: Active Release Therapy is what my chiropractor calls it. Hold me together for about 2 months before vertical presses or dips do me in again. Luckily, he's based at the gym. Kind of like a MASH unit!
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Laree
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I'm with you guys, depending on the source of the problem, of course. For two years my shoulder pain was bad, causing me to skip some of my favorite (and most productive) exercises. One day a chiropractor friend suggested I go in to see him. We had a conversation that included me scoffing somewhat -- I didn't need chiropractic for my shoulder, how silly! -- and he reminding me to trust him a little more.
I went in; he, uh... gauged out a couple of adhesions from between my deltoid and upper biceps and that two-year-old pain was gone in one visit.
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Stingo
Total Posts: 12873
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Quote:
hershey said:
I've had recurring shoulder problems for years and finally found short-term relief through very deep tissue massage: Active Release Therapy is what my chiropractor calls it. Hold me together for about 2 months before vertical presses or dips do me in again. Luckily, he's based at the gym. Kind of like a MASH unit!
I just saw my chiro today for a tweaked out rib in my upper back. While there I had him do what he called MRT Muscle Release Therapy, to reprogram the muscles after the subluxation. He also does that for my shoulder, then ultrasound. Ahhhhh...... ;-)
~ Stingo ~
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Plate Loader
Total Posts: 1368
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Anyone ever do trigger point therapy? I have sore elbows when doing direct tricep work (pushdowns). Even doing palms-facing chins and swinging a golf club affects my elbows. It turns out I have some very painful trigger points in my triceps just above the elbow. I've been massaging the area and it HURTS. Hopefully the more I massage, the better the tricep area will feel and the elbow pain will diminish. Anyone else dealt with this? Any good tricep stretches you can recommend? Thanks.
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mhess
Total Posts: 749
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I think Laree has had some experience with an ART therapist. They supposedly can work wonders on certain types of injuries/problems.
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SGT Snorkel
Total Posts: 260
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You might have a chiropractor look at it. They work wonders with the back and joints.
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cajinjohn
Total Posts: 12495
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Cory fixed me up at the bash. He knows how.
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Dan Cenidoza
Total Posts: 89
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www.triggerpointbook.comGet this book! It may just be the best $20 you ever spend, seriously. I've got this book sitting on my nightstand and have referenced it more times than I can count.
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Plate Loader
Total Posts: 1368
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I used a gadget I bought called a TheraCane on my above-elbow trigger points last night. Ouch! The pain shot from the tricep to the elbow. But, after 5 minutes or so, my elbows felt great. I'll use the gadget again tonight before my workout.
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Laree
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Thanks, Dan... ordered it. I know a couple of trigger points, and recognize the value, even though it took me some years of scoffing first. I started paying attention after our pal, Bruce Corum, D.C. (brother of Larry Corum, the owner of the World Gym here), did ART and in a few minutes "healed" my shoulder that had been aching for about two years. It's absolute magic on certain problems. Of course, it isn't magic, and it doesn't work for everything as some would have you believe.
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Wicked Willie
Total Posts: 16864
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Two good books that started the awareness of trigger points and the simple therapy to treat them are: Pain Erasure Myotherapy Both by Bonnie Prudden. I use it quite often, both on myself and others...even works on the pets. Wicked
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Wicked Willie
Total Posts: 16864
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A trigger point is usually a painful, stricture in a muscle in response to damage or trauma. It feels like a knot in the muscle and can usually be "released" through direct pressure on and about it, coupled with specific stretching to "re-educate" the muscle and loosen it a bit within the fascia.
ART, or active release therapy, is a combination of trigger point therapy and other modalities (such as cross-frictional massage.) Dr. Leahy was responsible for labelling it as ART and promoting it. The techniques have been around for hundreds of years, just not combined and marketed in that form.
Horrigan (sp) of the 7 minute Rotator Cuff Solution fame, also does ART - though he calls it something else.
Wicked
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SOLDIEROFGOD
Total Posts: 419
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Here is a link to some great information on trigger point therapy and myofascial pain from the faculty pages of my school website. This Doctor is one of my instructors and is VERY knowledgable.
http://www.logan.edu/faculty/rpvstl/myofasc.html
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JimC
Total Posts: 481
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Question for the Sage, Anything additional to do in addition to resting hte affected area to relief this deadly case of sore elbow? I've got tendon and bone pain on the inside knob of my elbow where the finger grip tendons connect. I am hoping for massage or pressure technique help. Or possibly cryo therapy suggestions.
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DavidB
Total Posts: 142
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I have used Bonnie Pruden's techniques for a long time now with great success. One of the best tools you can get is a jacknobber and they also have another tool shaped as an "S" for reaching the harder to get to spots.
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The Judge
Total Posts: 16490
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I have chronic elbow tendonitis in my left elbow which was originally caused by using too much weight with "skull crushers." I have since torn one of the tendons in that elbow. I can't do some presses and forget most long head tricep work unless I keep it light. I have used Bonnie Pruden for years with some success but ice/heat alternating and light pressdowns did the most for healing the elbow. I found a chiro who was trained in ART and did it on my shoulder a year after my last surgery and it was incredible. I was still suffering with the after affects of surgery after PT and ice and stretching. After a few sessions of ART, it was amazing. The elbow has a poor blood supply and healing is slow. Alternating ice and heat reduces inflammation and the heat brings in healing nutrients. Larry Scott has recommended not doing any exercise that hurts and that seems like common sense, except we often work through pain. Avoid anything that causes pain. Find movements that are pain free until you heal.
Judge John
"You cannot help men permanently by doing for them what they could and should do for themselves." - Abraham Lincoln
"I live, I lift, I ache, I am." - Dave Draper
"Moderation assures mediocrity -- nice, safe. Mediocrity is for the mediocre -- simple, okay. The intense rule; the mediocre follow." - Dave Draper
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JimC
Total Posts: 481
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Thank you judge, I will give the ice / heat alternation a try.
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LarryKreeger
Total Posts: 1847
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A friend of mine is training to be a masseuse and needs to get 50 hours of practice in. Of course because of my great humanitarian nature I immediately volunteered. She asked if I wanted a deep massage. I had no idea what she was asking me so I said yes. It felt pretty good until she hit this spot on my back and it hurt big time. She said oh you have a trigger point there. I thought that was interesting because Stuart in his books talks about trigger points. She found a bunch of them on my back and after much pain it was finally over. Afterwards I found that my back felt a lot more relaxed. Well that was my first experience with trigger points.
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rvan
Total Posts: 755
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I learned that term from my chiroprator. Could really feel it when pressure was applied.
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TomP
Total Posts: 4887
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Oh, I thought we were going to discuss repair of firearms.
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Garykissell
Total Posts: 442
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You LUCKY guy!
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Plate Loader
Total Posts: 1368
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Hey Larry- I've been squashing trigger points for a while now. Very effective in pain reduction. I wish after time the fixes would be permanent. I use my TheraCane before heavy leg (squats & deads) work on my quads to divert knee pain. Glad to hear you found the experience in combatting your trigger points.
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pwrhngry
Total Posts: 2434
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Me too Tom, I thiught that was the part of your index finger about halfway between the tip and the first knuckle. Huh? Learn something every day, I guess.(lol)
God is interested in our character, not our comfort!...Me
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Neander
Total Posts: 7755
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Larry, I feel your pain. The first time a chiro worked this one point on my hip I saw the white light and remember coming back to normal wondering if my payments were in arrears. After a few treatments there was no doubt the white spot worked.
Life's too short to worry about longevity.
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LarryKreeger
Total Posts: 1847
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I'm debating whether next time I want the massage that feels good or the massage that is good for me. :) I felt a lot better after the massage but the massage itselft was very uncomfortable. I think this might be a good career choice for someone with sadistist tendencies. :)
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Jamie
Total Posts: 379
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Quote:
LarryKreeger said:
I'm debating whether next time I want the massage that feels good or the massage that is good for me. :) I felt a lot better after the massage but the massage itselft was very uncomfortable. I think this might be a good career choice for someone with sadistist tendencies. :)
You are so right. I should know, I train them. LOL
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Whether you think you can or you think you can't, either way, you are correct. - Henry Ford.
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jej
Total Posts: 4679
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I have been training around bad shoulders for a long time. Right now, my left one is feeling good and getting stronger. My right one is so-so. I do a thorough RC warmup. I am doing two or three times more pulls than presses, all of which seems to be helping. I do Kelso shrugs at a variety of angles.
I found a groove for DB bench presses that does not hurt, and have been doing it for a few weeks. On a flat bench, with palms neutral - which for me is not quite facing each other - I am keeping my elbows in tight. Elbows contact my sides at the bottom of the motion, and I lower the DBs only to the point that my upper arms are parallel to the floor. I am using fat DB handles - maybe 1.75 inch diameter.
That is leaving me pain free during and after workouts, letting me progress with the weight. Seems the farther out my elbows are, the worse it is on my shoulders.
So - does this tell you anything about what part is messed up?
Or about what I should do next for the shoulder? I was planning on keeping with the flat DB bench as my main press for a few more weeks, and then go back to inclines when its time to shuffle the workouts again.
BTW - overhead presses are out for me. MD says I have a type 2 acromion, and overhead pressing will cause impingement.
jej
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garyed
Total Posts: 10226
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There is nothing you can do to "guarantee" that you won't have impingement problems or tears in the tendons.. You can strengthen the RC.. (sounds like you do that)... you can stretch and warm up and minimize the ROM to help reduce the wear and tear.. but guys that don't lift any weights at all can tear a rotator cuff ..
I am not really that clear on what your question or issue is...?? So.. whats the problem?
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Ivan
Total Posts: 832
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Quote:
garyed said:
but guys that don't lift any weights at all can tear a rotator cuff ..
Actually, I know a lot of guys like that.
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Laree
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Jeff, reach over with the opposite hand and find the spot where your deltoid meets the top of your triceps. Start pressing around there, fairly hard, and see if you find a spot that's ferociously tender, sort of like a lump. If you find one, grit your teeth and dig your fingers into it for a few minutes. Repeat tomorrow and the next day and report back. If it works, you'll have just discovered ART (active release therapy), either on an adhesion or trigger point. If Dan C's around, maybe he can explain better. All's I know is the above completely cured a two-year shoulder problem for me in two chiropractic visits.
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jej
Total Posts: 4679
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Quote:
garyed said:
I am not really that clear on what your question or issue is...?? So.. whats the problem?
The questions: what's the name of the injured part? Rotator cuff?
Is there something else I should be doing to help it along?
jej
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jej
Total Posts: 4679
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Quote:
Laree said:
Jeff, reach over with the opposite hand and find the spot where your deltoid meets the top of your triceps. Start pressing around there, fairly hard, and see if you find a spot that's ferociously tender, sort of like a lump. If you find one, grit your teeth and dig your fingers into it for a few minutes. Repeat tomorrow and the next day and report back.
.
Doing that. Gritting teeth now.
jej
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garyed
Total Posts: 10226
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Quote:
jej said:
Quote:
garyed said:
I am not really that clear on what your question or issue is...?? So.. whats the problem?
The questions: what's the name of the injured part? Rotator cuff?
Naming the injured part would require an examination by a trained specialist.. not possible over the net IMO...
Is there something else I should be doing to help it along?
See a doc, then maybe a chiro.. depending on the diagnosis..
jej
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Laree
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That mean you found something?
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Bug
Total Posts: 281
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Don't know and wouldn't attempt a diagnosis. You have a type two acromion. If your doc didn't explain the different types try this website. It explains different types of impingement including those that are caused by type two and three acromions. http://www.aafp.org/afp/980215ap/fongemie.htmlI've got a shredded shoulder and one that's just a bit worn out. The worn out shoulder has been responding pretty well to rc exercises. I know for a fact I have a little bone on bone in that one. The one that I injured, well, I'm still looking for a doctor to finish up the diagnosis.
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garyed
Total Posts: 10226
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That is a really good and comprehensive article..Thanks
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jej
Total Posts: 4679
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Quote:
Laree said:
That mean you found something?
Yup. Tender spot at point of attachment. Not super tender, but not the same as on left shoulder, either. The poking and prodding hurts, but feels good.
jej
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jej
Total Posts: 4679
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Bug
Total Posts: 281
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Quote:
garyed said:
That is a really good and comprehensive article..Thanks
You're welcome. I've been doing a little reading up on RC stuff. I just did a search one day on muscles of the rotator cuff and found quite a few good pages written in english that most anyone can understand. If my orthopedic surgeon hadn't given me a crash course in the function of the RC it would have been another catchall phrase for shoulder pain, like bursitis and tendonitis. Most people are absolutely clueless as to what the rotator cuff is, I sure as hell was. I have a little better understanding now a little less pain, but i need to get back for a diagnosis.
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garyed
Total Posts: 10226
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As an FYI.. before my surgery I had a type 2 acromion...after surgery..I don't have an acromion..They removed bone to clear the space and removed a non-essential tendon that aggravates impingement as well..
If I didn't lift weights...i could have done fine without any surgery...I could do normal daily activities..just couldn't bench much more than the empty bar...
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jej
Total Posts: 4679
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Gary
That is about what my last MD promised me if I did a bunch of overhead pressing. I decided I could live with benches and inclines, which he said presented a much lower risk for acromion-related issues.
jej
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garyed
Total Posts: 10226
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Quote:
jej said:
Gary
That is about what my last MD promised me if I did a bunch of overhead pressing. I decided I could live with benches and inclines, which he said presented a much lower risk for acromion-related issues.
jej
I would think that the risk would be pretty doggone similar.. But..in any case.. I would always opt for being able to do more... not just to be able to be average..he he he
I went to a sports doc.. who understood that I wanted to lift heavy stuff..not just put cans on a high shelf...
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ccrow
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Impossible to say what's injured, if anything. All we know is your shoulder isn't functioning properly when it's abducted. Very common problem. Active release or other soft tissue therapy (optional step but really worth while). This can really speed up your stretching efforts. Stretch the pecs, lats, and subscapularis until you have adequate or better flexibility. Physical therapists have simple tests for what constitutes adequate flexibility. Until you're flexible, your efforts to get strong will only get so far. Strengthen the rotator cuff and the muscles that control the scapula. Use a wide variety of exercises. If the exercises you're using aren't having the desired results, try others. Work as hard on upper back and shoulder stabilizer strength as you do on pecs and biceps.
The most important test a lifter has to pass
is the test of time.
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delusion of adequacy
Total Posts: 204
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i had a nagging shoulder problem. sore the day after workouts, aching at night, trigger points like tendonitis or bursitis. funny thing, a kid down the street wanted to "play catch". figured it would hurt but throwing a baseball actually made it feel a lot better. now, when i get a little shoulder soreness i got out and throw a baseball for 5 to 10 minutes as part of my routine. no kidding. it has just about eliminated my shoulder problems. only thing i can think of is its putting traction on the joint and relieving pressure somewhere. just an anecdotal story i thought i'd throw in (no pun intended).
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Laree
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Jeff, you get any relief from working that tender spot?
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The Judge
Total Posts: 16490
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Jeff, I have had impingement in both shoulders and, like Gary, had the acromial process and the ligament removed. I also had some shredding of the rotator cuff that had to be dealt with. The last one (left) had more damage to the labrum which was torn and had to be trimmed. It sounds like you are on your way to impingement but you should go to a sports ortho so that the surgery, if needed, is done with future training in mind. I had A.R.T. afterwards as post-surgery therapy and it worked great. I have my doubts that you can do it to yourself in an area that you can hardly reach. It is not just trigger point therapy where you rub out a trigger point. It involves strong pressure while the afflicted area is put through a range of motion. I would highly recommend doing an internet search for a CERTIFIED A.R.T. chiropractor and try that before having surgery. Don't just call a chiro and ask if he does A.R.T. because many will say yes to get your business but didn't go through the proper training and certification.
Judge John
"You cannot help men permanently by doing for them what they could and should do for themselves." - Abraham Lincoln
"I live, I lift, I ache, I am." - Dave Draper
"Moderation assures mediocrity -- nice, safe. Mediocrity is for the mediocre -- simple, okay. The intense rule; the mediocre follow." - Dave Draper
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