ccrow
old hand
Posts: 10033
Registered on 04-08-04
|
11-21-06 09:14 AM - Post#244368
Anyone doing the 5x5 program in the wiki (or anywhere) have any ideas, tune up suggestions, clarifications, etc.? A lot of people are at or near the half way point and there's a lot of good stuff in the logs, but I thought it would be a good time to start collecting some of this stuff. I'll bump this periodically, especially in another month or so when people start completing the thing.
The most important test a lifter has to pass
is the test of time.
-John Cole
|
|
ccrow
old hand
Posts: 10033
Registered on 04-08-04
|
Re: 5x5 Notes
11-21-06 09:26 AM - Post#244369
One thing I'll throw out there, doing conditioning work with the program. This isn't really directly addressed in any of the materials I collected info from. I would say the main thing would be to keep in mind what the overall load is supposed to be doing as you go through the program.
That would suggest something like this-
Week 1-2, 6-7: Moderate amount
Week 3-4, 8-9: Minimal amount
Week 5, 10: Low intensity only, low to moderate amount
What's a "moderate amount" or "minimal amount" depends of course on your individual fitness level and work capacity but you get the gist of it. Conditioning is not the focus of this program but it shouldn't be impossible to maintain a decent degree of fitness without messing up strength gains. I'm just interested in people's impressions if doing this stuff took a lot of energy, felt hard or easy, etc.
The most important test a lifter has to pass
is the test of time.
-John Cole
|
|
Kyle Estle
Disrupting Homeostasis
Posts: 5253
Age: 47
Loc: CA
Registered on 04-01-04
|
Re: 5x5 Notes
11-21-06 12:10 PM - Post#244370
Whoops...I just did a killer conditioning workout and I'm in Week 5. No worries though, because I'm going to probably miss Friday's workout, which will leave me plenty rested for Monday.
Something I would like to stress is that before starting the template you should be at a point that you aren't adding weight to the bar each workout. If you are just coming back from a layoff or are new to lifting, use single factor periodization until you hit a sticking point. Then start it.
I started the template shortly after training for Volkslauf, and was not squatting during my Volkslauf training. I tested my 3rm which was down from my typical, but used the lower 3rm to start the template. By week 3 my gains in the squat outpaced the template and I had to make adjustments. Not a big deal but something to consider when testing the 3rm.
Also, I know Bryon stresses this in his comments, but make sure you test the 3rm in each lift rather than guessing. The template uses specific percentages of those 3rms to determine each workout and you will lose a lot of the potential effectiveness if your numbers aren't accurate.
| Performance, Health, and Longevity |
|
jmac
OL Geek
Posts: 8895
Age: 49
Loc: Austin, Texas
Registered on 05-03-06
|
Re: 5x5 Notes
11-21-06 12:29 PM - Post#244371
Byron, not running your template but working with the Bill Starr advanced template. Starr throws in hypers, sit ups, leg raises, and some direct arm work - curls, dips - during the week. I like adding this extra work in the beginning but I noticed that week 4 I was spent with the core exercises so I didn't bother with them. What are your thoughts on this extra work?
I also see that you just put the top number in your template for that workout, what are your thoughts on bringing it up to the target weight as far as percentages of target?
Like Kyle, here in week 5 and I plan to go hit the park this afternoon and do the fitness course and trail.
--
"Let me hear the shoes" - Oleg
"если медведь может ездить велосипед все возможно" -Oleg
jmac's training log
|
|
Diablo
Legal Alien
Posts: 3856
Loc: Fresno Ca.
Registered on 05-25-05
|
Re: 5x5 Notes
11-21-06 03:12 PM - Post#244372
Things I didn't quite grasp and do now.
Test your 3RM. I thought I knew myself well enough to guestimate my numbers. I did ok, had to fudge a little early on. But this still left me with a failure type feeling from knowing what I have going could be better. Not a big deal as long as you're not putting your entire training career on this one 9 week trial. Don't be looking to dog the template cause you didn't do your homework.
The first weeks break you down. It's a cumulative thing. No one day will leave you spent completely. Get used to having gas left in the tank. I know now, at the end of the first half that my legs are ready to rest. Woke up this morning with DEEP soreness in the legs. Not that debilitating stuff that just makes ya walk funny. Talking ache to the bone. Will be nice to let that rest and recoup now.
Read up on how Dual Periodization works. It helps you grasp and deal with leaving gas in the tank.
Keep a logbook. After some of my initial training I was used to 30 and 60 second breaks. I used a timer. For the amount of heavy work here that is much too short of a rest. 3 minutes seems to be about right for the heavy days on the template, at least for me. Writing things down as I go realy helps me know from one template day to the next what kind of direct impact those breaks have on the feel for each move. 3 minutes for me is an eternity, keeping track writing down almost seems too easy at that point. The heavy Dead Lifts really need that kind of break as well.
Ramping weight for the 1x5. If my target 5th set weight is 190, where do I start for my first set? What seems to work best? I have tried a couple different ways, and they seem to have about the same effect. I tried adding 10# per set, for 190 this had me start at 150. But by the time I got to 190 I was already too pre-exhausted to complete the final reps. I also tried ramping with bigger jumps to my goal weight. There did seem to be benefit, but those 1x5 days are working towards something aren't they. So, what's important there?
Suggestion/Question;
What do you do when you miss a day?
Skip it, pick up from where you left off?
Since this template is pretty set in method of attack to the body, it feels that each day IS that important. Least, that's my feeling on it.
An Experiment;
I decided to play with the template. I think this may have been a poor decision, but again I'm not putting all my training yea or na on this one 9 week run. Given some of the layout of the template and some personal goals I have I decided to switch the Bench Press and Standing Press in the Template. Looking ahead on the template, and taking into account the amount of work it has been on my shoulders, it doesn't look like it's going to pan out well. Should this work or not work I'll make note of it here. Guinea Pig one time for the team. Just to note though, I have only experienced tired shoulders. Nothing painful and no joint issues. I was kind of expecting that something might surface and indicate overtraining. Nothing so far.
Random Notes:
Eat. If I ccould freeze 9 weeks of food I'd do it. Anything that would make sure I get all the nutrition I can. I have bad days of not eating enough, days of eating the wrong food. Life happens, be prepared for these kinds of variables and you're setting yourself up for that much more success. This is a lot of work with big compound moves. 3 days a week of this is a new thing to me. I'm not used to needing so much to eat. Take the calories and run. My best days with this template work have been on days that I felt I ate too much or even had bad food. Bad food for me tends to be calorie dense, no doubt the extra calories were behind some of the better feel in the gym. Imagine if a food plan were layed out properly with steaks and legumes and oats and yams. And plenty of it all.
Rest. Get enough sleep.
|
In Training
Doing it!
Posts: 4062
Age: 52
Loc: sunny central washington!
Registered on 02-18-05
|
Re: 5x5 Notes
11-21-06 03:34 PM - Post#244373
Quote:
Diablo said:
...had to fudge a little early on.
i like fudge...
|
Kyle Estle
Disrupting Homeostasis
Posts: 5253
Age: 47
Loc: CA
Registered on 04-01-04
|
Re: 5x5 Notes
11-21-06 04:01 PM - Post#244374
Excellent notes, D. I have a few things to add to that, namely the eating, missing workouts, etc but need some time to ponder a little before I put it in writing.
I want to go back to what Bryon was asking regarding whether or not the training requires a lot of energy or felt hard or easy....
I've done the full 5 x 5 ramp up/loading phase, through week four when you are using your previous 3rm for 5 rep sets on the bench, squat, and row.
I wouldn't say any individual workout is extremely hard. First, the presses and chins stay fairly light, and deads get to no more than moderate intensity. That leaves squats, bench, and rows for the highest intensity and the intensity for those is spread out but then peaks in week four.
The first two weeks I would put in the category of easy. You're working well below your maximum and, for me, I took plenty of time between sets as I took this on for strength gains and not conditioning (I've added conditioning work on separate days). Week three really piqued my interest as the intensity jumped and there are a lot of squat reps involved which will bring on the fatigue.
Week four is where the real challenge hits. Day one of week four has moderate squats with the heavy bench and row; Wednesday has more volume but not necessarily high-intensity, and the heavy squat day is reserved for Day three when the bench and row are moderate. In other words, each indivual workout has a good degree of balance in intensity. You're going to have some hard sets but each overall workout is not particularly hard.
What happens though, and Leo touched on this, is the accumulation of three-day a week progressively harder whole-body compound movement workouts hitting your previous 3rm with 5-rep sets during week four will put wear and tear on your body. You never fully recover from any one workout. The fatigue accumulates but at the same time your fitness, or in this case strength, is increasing. I'll have more to say on this after unloading this week and next, then ramping up to the heavy triples toward the end. But I can say this - my body is tired, and consistently sore but not exhausted.
I have more to say but I'll leave it here for now.
Kyle E.
| Performance, Health, and Longevity |
|
nomain
Work in Progress
Posts: 2181
Age: 41
Loc: NYC
Registered on 04-05-04
|
Re: 5x5 Notes
11-21-06 04:09 PM - Post#244375
Quote:
Diablo said:
What do you do when you miss a day?
Skip it, pick up from where you left off?
Since this template is pretty set in method of attack to the body, it feels that each day IS that important. Least, that's my feeling on it.
Sometimes I find that one day of rest between workouts isn't enough so I don't usually do the prescribed Mon-Wed-Fri workouts but train whenever I feel I'm ready for more. Could be one day in between workouts, could be three. Also my work capacity usually goes up over the course of the workout and I need less rest days.
|
Kyle Estle
Disrupting Homeostasis
Posts: 5253
Age: 47
Loc: CA
Registered on 04-01-04
|
Re: 5x5 Notes
11-21-06 05:55 PM - Post#244376
A few more thoughts...
On ramping up to the 1 x 5, I look at the top weight as the target and the four previous sets as warm-ups. It's that last set that's important. When I set up the workout I look at that top set first and work backwards. If the top set is say 250, I might look at the fourth set as being 220, the third 200, second 175, and the first 135. On these I tend to take less time between sets on the first three, then get ample rest for 4 and 5.
Miss a workout? I think your actions depend on where you are in the template. Miss a day in week one, two, or five? I say skip it. Week four, eight or nine? Definitely not. Get that work in.
Playing with the template....Generally probably not a good idea. One thing I did and I think it has worked fine - I switched out the flat bench for inclines. Flat benches irritate my impinged shoulder but inclines don't. Also, I train alone, without a spotter, and can roll a missed incline press down my torso and off my body - not so easy on a flat bench.
Food...I started eating excess calories one week prior to starting the template and have almost gained 10lbs in six weeks. I'm sure this factors into my reaction to the workouts; someone on restricted or maintenance calories might have a more difficult time with the individual workouts. Like I said earlier though, I don't find any one of them particularly hard, but the key is in the accumulation of the workouts.
Just for fun, I ran a few consecutive templates to see where it could take you.
If someone were to stay on this for five consecutive runs, which would take you out 55 or so weeks (basically a little over a year), and you were only able to do what the template calls for (the top set for week 9) and no more. Your numbers would look like this (these are just random starting numbers)
Squat, beginning 3rm: 250lbs/ending 3rm: 350lbs (+40%)
Bench, beginning 3rm: 200lbs/ending 3rm: 275lbs (+37.5%)
Row.., beginning 3rm: 150lbs/ending 3rm: 225lbs (+50%)
How many of us would be over-friggin-joyed to increase these three lifts by 35-50% in a year??
Kyle E.
| Performance, Health, and Longevity |
|
Diablo
Legal Alien
Posts: 3856
Loc: Fresno Ca.
Registered on 05-25-05
|
Re: 5x5 Notes
11-21-06 06:11 PM - Post#244377
Quote:
nomain said:
Quote:
Diablo said:
What do you do when you miss a day?
Skip it, pick up from where you left off?
Since this template is pretty set in method of attack to the body, it feels that each day IS that important. Least, that's my feeling on it.
Sometimes I find that one day of rest between workouts isn't enough so I don't usually do the prescribed Mon-Wed-Fri workouts but train whenever I feel I'm ready for more. Could be one day in between workouts, could be three. Also my work capacity usually goes up over the course of the workout and I need less rest days.
My old routine would leave me spent after every workout day. What you do now is what I did before as well. I would wait till I was bounced back all the way.
But to build even more on what Kyle wrote, take into consideration what the template is doing. It's progressively wearing you down on purpose. That's why the back off week. It's noted in template that some days will be too much, just do your best. It is implied here that you are being taxed fully. Yet, the template wants you to work on that set schedule. What's being done here? You're being torn down to be rebuilt. The fatigue does accumulate, that is the intent. The back off week has you bounce back, it's a very light week. Mostly it seems to just keep you moving. Least, since I haven't actually completed that part, that's the impression I get from assessing the template numbers for week 5.
I'm personally looking forward to the tripples. Even the first week after the layoff is still not bad, considering it's tripples. You're still being let off the hook. It ramps you back up with tripples. Here is where the building back phase adds size and power and strength. Again, at least that what I can assess from the numbers I see on the template.
I do believe that if you eat and rest well enough you don't need to wait those extra days. I know the feeling of wanting to hit the gym with a full head of steam, and fully rested, and fully fed and the like. I can see where you're coming from on that end. But, since I havn't tried this template before I have nothing to lose and a lot to gain for trying it as prescribed. (for what that's worth considering I changed up the Press and Bench)
|
Diablo
Legal Alien
Posts: 3856
Loc: Fresno Ca.
Registered on 05-25-05
|
Re: 5x5 Notes
11-21-06 06:46 PM - Post#244378
Byron, you might add a link in the wiki that you have in the blog. There is an article on dual periodization in the blog that would be good to have in the wiki. That article helped me quite a bit.
This one, though it refers to it as Two Factor
Two-Factor
I think I might have some terms confused. This article helped me understand the breakdown and build up, I took it as periodization, when it's written as factor. Splitting hairs again:)
|
jmac
OL Geek
Posts: 8895
Age: 49
Loc: Austin, Texas
Registered on 05-03-06
|
Re: 5x5 Notes
11-21-06 07:02 PM - Post#244379
I'm working off the Starr template and something that is different is that in weeks 5-9 the Wednesday squat is dropped and your only squatting on Monday and Friday. Monday is a 3x3xnnn straight set where Friday works up in 1x3 to new maxes. Wednesday is pull day and the focus is deadlift.
I like this templates week 5-9 configuration since I think it will allow me to work toward new PRs in both squat and deadlift. I would be concerned with my performance trying to keep up 3 day a week squats in the 3x3 with the weight increasing quite a bit over my previous 1RM/3RM, I could see myself having issues with cumulative fatigue during these weeks much like that of the first 4 weeks.
I worked really hard to not miss workouts and kept on top of them even when I was feeling extremely fatigued. When I did miss a workout I made it up the next day and tried to complete the 3 by Saturday so I could start back up with Monday of the next week and keep it in synch.
Food, diet hasn't been the best. I have eaten clean for the most part but then I have had those days where I shoved everything in my mouth that wasn't still moving. I think my body was telling me I needed calories so I just packed them in when I felt that I needed the extra fuel in the tank.
Kyle, I like the numbers that you ran taking this out that many weeks but I feel that at some point you will hit a plateau and this will come to a grinding halt. I also feel that from a CNS perspective this is a very taxing routine and at some point your body is going to give out from underneath you. This is my second 9 weeks of 5x5 and I am thinking maybe one more go round, using Byron's template, before I switch up to something different.
Has this been fun, Hell yes! and I would recommend this routine to anybody to give it a run for the money.
--
"Let me hear the shoes" - Oleg
"если медведь может ездить велосипед все возможно" -Oleg
jmac's training log
|
|
Kyle Estle
Disrupting Homeostasis
Posts: 5253
Age: 47
Loc: CA
Registered on 04-01-04
|
Re: 5x5 Notes
11-21-06 07:51 PM - Post#244380
Quote:
jmac said:
Kyle, I like the numbers that you ran taking this out that many weeks but I feel that at some point you will hit a plateau and this will come to a grinding halt. I also feel that from a CNS perspective this is a very taxing routine and at some point your body is going to give out from underneath you. This is my second 9 weeks of 5x5 and I am thinking maybe one more go round, using Byron's template, before I switch up to something different.
Has this been fun, Hell yes! and I would recommend this routine to anybody to give it a run for the money.
Obviously I just ran those for fun as few, if any, would consider doing five consecutive runs of this template, but not for the reasons you stated. People will get bored, or will feel the need to emphasize a different style of training, change goals, whatever. I don't think, though, that gains would come to a grinding halt or the CNS will get overtaxed.
There's only two, possibly three weeks out of 11 that the CNS gets heavy stimulation. The remaining weeks are either backing down or ramping up. Then after nine weeks, you spend two weeks of resting up and testing your 3rm. I don't see this as overly aggressive neural stimulation.
As to the gains stopping, that's entirely possible. However, the template is designed for a lifter to continually get results by managing fitness and fatigue over a period of weeks and months. And, even though the primary emphasis is on squat, row, and bench, the other lifts will come up as well. I know my deadlift and press have gotten stronger even though I have only been doing them with moderate intensity and only once per week. How long will it last? Don't know until we try.
Kyle E.
| Performance, Health, and Longevity |
|
pwrhngry
Carpal tunnel from posting!
Posts: 2593
Age: 35
Loc: Springfield, missouri
Registered on 09-10-05
|
Re: 5x5 Notes
11-22-06 06:06 AM - Post#244381
I am in the middle of week 4 of byron's template in the wiki, and here are some of my impressions.
First off, Kyle is right on the money about the 3 rm. I was a month off of the weights, as I was focussing on SORT training, and so when I tested for the 3rms, I was somewhat deconditioned. As a result, the lifts have seemed a little lighter than they probably should have been. The deconditioning wears off pretty quickly, and then strength levels are a bit higher than forecasted.
The squats have been the most challenging, but then again, arent they always? No single set seems to be"all-out, but the cumulative fatigue does set in.
I have used all 60-120 second rest periods throughout. I need the full 2 minutes on squats, but on the 1x5 days especially with the bench and row, 1 minute has been plenty.
Deads have been the surprize. They have seemed consistently heavy throughout, and are usually a bread and butter lift for me. I think its because of the fact that they immediately follow squats, which is a layout ive never used before.
I have consistently trained conditioning on off days with 2 mile runs twice a week, and an obstacle course run twice a week as well. I dont feel like it has affected the lifts at all, but to some extent the other way around, is true. A 2 mile run on the day after squats and deads is a little rough on the hamstrings. As far as soreness: there was a little bit of light DOMS in the first couple of weeks , but none since.
As far as nutritional intake, I have remained the same throughout, at about 2000 kcal per day, give or take, and about a standard 1gm pro per pound. I have been a little heavier on the fats (nuts mostly) and light on the carbs. With the running, along with the template I have leaned out some, in fact, but not really dropped any weight.
So far its been a satisfying layout, if a little "easy" as compared to being left to my own devices. But thats probably a good thing, since I tend to go a little too hard, and stall myself too much.
God is interested in our character, not our comfort!...Me
"When your going through Hell, keep going."... W. Churchill
"May you be in heaven an hour before the devil knows your dead."...Irish proverb
|
|
ccrow
old hand
Posts: 10033
Registered on 04-08-04
|
Re: 5x5 Notes
11-22-06 10:07 AM - Post#244382
A lot of great info and comments there, thanks everyone. Here are my thoughts on a couple of the things mentioned.
As far as missing workouts, I'd suggest making them up in the same week, unless it's the unload week (week 5) in which case it doesn't really matter. For example, if you miss your Wednesday workout, no biggie, do it on Thursday. If it's one of the easy weeks (1,2,6,7), you can probably work out Friday as usual and not mind a bit; if it's one of the harder weeks (3,4,8,9) you'd probably want to take a day's rest and do Friday's workout Saturday. This method does not involve recovering fully between workouts. (If you are shocked and appalled by that, you have some homework to do.)
As for the conditioning work, I am interested to see where this goes for everyone. I have a feeling that experience is the main thing here. The person that has a very good feel for how much is enough is going to be fine. If that person is mindful of the plan's buildup of fatigue and rest from week to week, all will be well. The person that tends to drive themself into the ground had better err towards LESS if they are focused on strength gains. (Ahem.) If you're making all the reps in week 4 and 9, and resting during weeks 5 and 10, I'd say what you're doing is working.
As for the long term projections, I think that for an ideal candidate Kyle's projections are very possible. Obviously past training experience will be a huge factor, Andy Bolton isn't going to jump in here and go from a 1000 pound deadlift to a 1500 pound deadlift in five years or something. You eventually get to a point where you're close to your potential for growth. But even with lousy genetics you're going to get real big and strong before you hit that wall.
I don't think this routine is rough at all on the CNS. Explosive stuff like power cleans, plyos, etc. are more CNS intensive. This routine has plenty of underreaching as well as overreaching, so you can continue over the long haul without too much trouble without burning out.
The long term projections are where things are going to really take some thought. I think the two big things are going to be identifying weak points that develop and outgrowing exercises. The temptation is people will make decisions that should be based on performance, function, etc., on a basis of cosmetics. I think Starr put the arm work in there because he knew his college football player kids were going to do it anyway, and if he could keep it in the program at least they might limit it to some reasonable amounts.
This is a big topic, I will bring it up again when I have more time to do it justice. However I will say for 99% of us, the routine will work fine, little to no modification, until you're Pretty Damned Strong.
The most important test a lifter has to pass
is the test of time.
-John Cole
|
|
|
