Dave Draper’s Musclebuilding Q&A

I am 62 years old and have been trying to do standing overhead presses with an Olympic bar (very light weight) and it puts tremendous pressure on my middle back and makes it feel sprained. What would be the best alternative if I can’t do the standing overhead press?   I tried an inclined press (60 degrees) from a seat to support my back and there is no problem. Is that a suitable substitute for the overhead press?  Would doing overhead presses on a Smith Machine sitting on a bench be a better alternative than the inclined presses, or do you know of a better exercise to work the shoulders?

Time to rely on the support of a utility bench or incline. I don’t agree with the incline barbell press (shoulders run for cover), but I love all degrees of dumbbell inclines, including 75 degrees. I do steep incline front presses with on the Smith machine and do a nasty abbreviated version of a seated press behind necks when no one is looking. It hurts good.

I sure do enjoy standing one-arm dumbbell lateral raises while holding on to an upright for support. I start light for clean reps and work my way up the rack till I’m hefting some heavier weight (still in the kid’s department) in what could pass for one-arm cleans.

Feels good… lots of core… wide-range of grooves for tattered delts… be careful… I try… we press on… DD

I am just wondering if there is more muscle recruitment involved in barbell bench pressing, and if I will be missing something if I do dumbbell presses instead. Also, I think in the past when I have gotten shoulder pain, it was when I tried to do too low reps. Maybe keeping the reps between 8 and 12 would help eliminate that?

You’re in good hands with the dumbbells. There’s more and safer muscle recruitment with the dumbbells — you need to engage different muscles of the body to position the weights for pressing. You require more muscle to control the individual dumbbells, and with practice you are able to modify the tracking of the dumbbells to accommodate your specific needs. Not so with a bar.

Using higher reps is thoughtful. Build strength and muscle and familiarity with the mechanics over time. What’s the rush, right? Warming up is super important with all exercises.

You have plenty of time to investigate six reps and doubles and singles when you decide the time is right.

Don’t be afraid, but be safe.

Dave

Question: per your weekly article, how come incline benches are bad, but incline dumbbells aren’t?  Also, remember that Moses was 80 years old when he led the children of Israel out of Egypt..so you’re still a kid at 68.

The bar is fixed, a rigid handle causing stress in the hands, wrists, elbows and shoulders and associated muscle regions and their insertions as they try to respond to the natural tracking of the pressing action. The dumbbells allow the needed freedom of movement, eliminating the injury-producing strain and malfunction.

Plus, the individual resistance of the free-groove seeking dumbbells demands greater control and permits specific control, advancing the building and forming of healthy muscle and might. Huh?

Or, as they used to say in the old YMCA boiler room gyms, lift and shut up…

Gee, he’s getting cranky in his old age…

The desert life and manna soup and the nearness to camels is extraordinarily wholesome. And I understand the water springing from the rock was high in minerals and had life-enhancing qualities.

Godspeed… Dave

When you write, “The absolute best movements for shoulder health are overhead presses and horizontal rows,” is a horizontal row the same as a bent-over row? That is, is a horizontal row where you are bent at the waist, torso parallel to floor, with the proper curvature of course, and you’re pulling the dumbbell up from the floor?

That is a one-arm dumbbell row for a thick and powerful back and lat region… great exercise… but…

Horizontal row:

Lie on the floor, stiff-bodied and wide-arms length under a properly racked bar and pull yourself upward — chest to bar — and lower.

Exercise recruits the muscles that stabilize the scapula and thus contribute to a healthy shoulder structure and balance.for hefty injury-less-likely shoulder training. These are also called body rows.

Treat them as you would chins — sets, reps, focused pace and form…

Pressing on… Godspeed… Dave

I am having trouble clearing heavy dumbbells up for inclines and shoulder presses. I have nobody to spot me and the only other person at the gym when I go is the poor guy who has to clean up behind everybody and he is busy enough with that job. I do the old heave with the dumbbells on the quads but when they are in position I just about blew all my energy. What do you think of Hammer Strength equipment?

I’d say it was time to handle only those dumbbells that make you happy and don’t threaten you with injury, doubt or frustration. The Hammer shoulder press is a decent apparatus once you determine the seat adjustment and grip and groove and range of motion and rep rhythm.

For similar reasons I have turned to seated steep-incline front presses on the Smith Press. Give those a try as part of your exercise repertoire. We do what we can to get where we’re going… wherever that might be.

Go… Godspeed… Dave

I’m 58 years old and started weight lifting at age 14. I felt great for years enjoying exercise. I need to have shoulder replacements in both shoulders due to arthritis. In your years of experience, do you think bodybuilders wear their joints out? Could my case just be from genetics?

Sorry for your injuries and the tough road ahead. Learn, grow and endure and you’ll come out on top.

I suppose we’re susceptible to injury due to a list of variables outside the gym walls, which include genetics, structure, nutrition, accidents, lifestyle and job description. And in the gym even a sound and genetically strong body can be damaged by excessive training, overload, improper exercise execution, carelessness and foolishness.

A responsible and sensible and meticulous lifter has the best chance of surviving training injury-free. Hello! Such animals are as frequent as zebra-striped apes. Most ironheads I know are a good kind of crazy, pushing and pulling with all their might.

Sometimes I think the pain begins in the head and ends in the shoulder… or elbows or knees or…

Slow me down Lord.

I guess that would be Godspeed… Dave

The cartilage in both of my shoulders is gone — the x-rays and MRIs show bone on bone. It hurts both during the workouts and afterwards. I have had cortisone shots in the past, but that cannot continue on an indefinite basis. Taking Tylenol helps the pain, but does not treat the cause. Do you have any advice for me?

Doesn’t sound good. I think this is the time some doctors recommend shoulder joint replacements.

I’m 68… letting go is hard to do… surgery is a crappy option, if it’s available — anesthesia, recovery, insurance. Continue intuitive training accompanied by the best nutrition is the least undesirable road. Beware of excessive use of any and all pain killers or anti-inflammation over-the-counters.

Working around shoulder deterioration is a frustrating challenge and is best discovered and arranged by the pain-guided subject. I think you know all about that by now. Light one-arm lateral raises with focus and form and adaptive groove sound good compared to presses that bear down on the bone, cable crossover for pecs, partial range of motion on certain exercise (stiff-arm pullover, pulldowns, seated lat rows).

You might love rope tucks.

Go… Godspeed… Dave

I was looking at the top squat and maybe I missed it in the reading, but in your opinion could the Top Squat considerably reduce the risk of shoulder injury? I’ve been pretty lucky so far, but some days I can tell that I overtrain. Just curious because I’ve used the Manta Ray and it’s effective enough, but on those heavy squat days my shoulder seems to get more of a workout than my legs.

I devised the unit specifically because of my own shoulder damage… cannot reach back to stabilize the bar.

The top squat allows the lifter to hold the bar in place without stress on the shoulder cage, and enables the essential relocation of position of the load on the back to perfect the squat movement. The Manta Ray holds bar in one place, too high on my back to be healthy for me and does not unload the stress on my shoulders.

Here’s a video a young coach made with the top squat recently — thanks, Nick.

Dave

You mentioned in a recent Q and A about avoiding upright rows. I was wondering if you thought doing them with dumbbells would be easier on the shoulders. I know you’ve avoided the regular barbell bench press for years in favor of incline dbell benches instead. Would using dbells for upright rows in your opinion provide a similar alternative for the upright movement, such as upright rows and the hang clean and press?

Be your own trainer with vigilance. Partial upright rows with moderate weight might be okay, if you don’t enter a red zone of dislocation. Make the muscles work via focus, form and controlled force.

Try the dumbbell things (in both cases, bar and dumbbells) with a light weight to warm up, study the movement and locate a groove and achieve healthy and productive eccentric and concentric action. Take the weight up slowly and employ a well-defined, low-volume thrust to ease the weight into a substantial, non-endangering groove.

In other words, be careful, Chief Ironhead. Use your head and shoulders… Some people can do ‘em… most can’t.

We lift, live, learn and grow, don’t you know… DD

This question has been on my mind for a long time.  Would a person develop the most real strength doing straight bench presses or doing dumbbell bench presses?  It seems to me dumbbell pressing is a lot more difficult.  What do you think?

Go dumbbells. It’s safer and healthier for shoulders, more effective muscle- and strength-builder, more variation in action for movement relief, muscle shaping and funzo.

Drawback: They don’t come in a convenient overhead rack.

Plus-factor: The lifter has to put them in place with alacrity, agility, finesse and might. This is good for the system and core and associated muscles.

The best dumbbells come in pairs… Godspeed… DD

Five months ago, I had arthroscopic surgery on my right shoulder for a full SLAP tear.  Physical therapy went very well, and I’ve healed fully.  I’ve returned to the gym hungrier than ever.  However, my doctor told me that I should never, ever do military bench again (GASP). I currently start my shoulder workout with rotator cuff exercises with light weight that I added to my repertoire during therapy.  For size and power, I do front and side dumbbell raises to hit my deltoids, as well as reverse flies for the rear deltoids.  I also throw in upright rows. Do you think I’m neglecting any major muscles in my shoulders?

Bench press or overhead press?  Bench press is murder on the shoulders. No big loss there. Perhaps dumbbells on flat and and various degrees of incline will be safe for your type of injury. Excellent musclebuilders.

Extra warm-up, meticulous reps directed by injury, great focus, light weight, slower, burning reps.

Dump the upright rows… another shoulder killer.

You’ll continue to repair over time. Soundness of repair and improved capability takes some years… you’ll see.

Be sensible, be consistent, be grateful, be happy… Godspeed… DD

I am getting serious about training again. I’m not even 60 and the last few weeks I’ve actually gotten weaker, which is a little down-heartening. Benching 320 was fairly easy and now I’m maxed out at just over 300. I’m working out two days a week and thought maybe I should back off a little. I’ve lost eight pounds as well in the last two weeks.

Twice a week is barely enough for healthy muscle building, but your weight loss can account for drop in strength.

I dare not encourage you to seek your goal in heavy bench pressing. You’ll almost surely incur a shoulder injury and an renewed introduction to training disappointment. Who needs it at 60?

Who needs it at 17?

Train hard, train with spirit, train with joy and high hopes and good health, but don’t train with an injury, or the risk of one.

Heavy benches and seeking singles and max weight are notorious for rotator damage. Go visit the dumbbell rack and build healthy muscle safer and faster.

dd

I can’t develop my front delts.  No matter what combo of exercises, reps, whatever, they just won’t budge.  My side and rear delts are fine, but without the front my shoulders really cave in.  Any tips or suggestions?

Don’t know what can be done beyond any and all of the dumbbell pressing movements from flat to steep inclines and military (front) presses. Forward or front lateral-raises should help. I suspect it’s a structural challenge. Caps and rear deltoids are the usual culprits; front deltoids not so much.

Focus and isolate, high and low reps within a pyramid MO…

I like one-arm front dumbbell raises while holding on to a stable upright. Thoughtfully practiced, these single-arm movements can really blast the shoulders according to your direction… go light to heavy, with increasing thrust… four sets x 6 to 12 reps along with your mid- to steep-incline dumbbell pressing schedule twice a week.

We never quit… Dave

In a recent newsletter, you mention both shoulder and chest incline dumbbell press.  I’m not clear about what the difference might be in those two moves.

The steeper the incline, the greater the load on the shoulder regions. Conversely, the lower the incline the more the pecs are engaged.

As a young lifter, I quickly discovered barbell inclines were murder on my shoulder cage, and dumbbells were just right — powerful muscle engagement in cleaning the weights into position and more control in directing action toward power-groove and away from injury.

The bench press is a universally favorite exercise and hard to resist, but is famous for developing severe and lifelong shoulder problems. Works okay — injury to musclebuilding ratio — if it is executed as a thoughtful exercise and not a blood-spurting-from-the-eyes power movement. Trouble ahead, safety and longevity first.

Blast to last…  Bomber

I am trying to make sure I understand your shoulder rehab exercise. When you said you let your arm hang and you made small circles, I am assuming your arm hung straight down and you made circles very close to your hip bone. I am envisioning your hand stayed pretty close to your hip.

The movement is meant to warm-up and “lube” the area with oxygen-rich blood and prepare it for more direct action.

Assume a bent-over position, support yourself with the one arm and allow the arm of the injured shoulder to hang and rotate clockwise and counter clockwise with five pounds for ten rotations each direction.

Focus, feel… 1 -2 sets.

Care, rest, time… Godspeed… DD

I am now 46 and have been weight training since 15. At 42 I was hit with a nasty virus that still plaques me with muscle weakness and insomnia, greatly reducing my post-workout recovery. The past few years the left shoulder started hurting, MRI showed impingement w/ partial thickness tears, then medial epicondylitis. The Ortho doc didn’t push for surgery, but said if I want to resume weight training I would have to limit my overhead movements and give up squats or have arthroscpic surgery. As much as I want to work out, I hold back in fear of wearing out what is left of my aging body. Have you had or know any other bodybuilders who had arthroscopic surgery and resumed their normal workout routines? What do most bodybuilders do about nagging wear and tear injuries?

Forty-six is young from my viewpoint and the lifters I know have had the urge and incentive to push on though their 50s and on into their 60s and 70s. Orthoscopy for shoulders or knees are not uncommon among my buds at the gym and are a dreaded inconvenience, but they have worked wonders — diminishing pain, increasing mobility and capability. With your viral-infection limitations, who knows how repair might be affected… only God or the best and sincerest doctors.

You’re right. We face a critical dilemma as we get older: When is resistance training no longer healthy, and when are we wearing out our bodies as we press on rather than favoring the heaps of flesh?

Be wise and aware. I train on and, with an ear and eye on the signals and the nose of commonsense and instinct, modify wherever I need and must. ‘Wherever’ includes training intensity, duration and frequency — rest and recovery — weights used, sets and reps applied — groove of movement, range of motion and rep-speed and rep-pace and set-pace — cables or machine instead of free-weights — and, of course, nutrition and supplementation. It’s a work in progress…

We’re all different — chemistry, genes, structure, psychology, what makes us tick, what satisfies our needs, what our needs are. The repair procedures take careful consideration, balancing, evaluating, conferring… pros and cons.

You’re in the driver’s seat — floor it or hit the breaks, left at the corner, veer right or go straight ahead with the top down… engage seat belts… potholes ahead.

Go… Godspeed… Dave

Muscular shoulders are my weak points in bodybuilding. Here is an example of my shoulder workout: 4 sets of dumbbell presses or 4 sets of military presses with a barbell (15-8 reps each), side lateral raises supersetted with front lateral raises (15-8 reps).  I never feel sore the day after doing my shoulder workout. By not feeling the soreness, I feel like I didn’t work my shoulders hard enough. I was thinking about changing my shoulder routine by doing more shoulder presses such as 4 sets of barbell military press tri-setted with 4 sets of dumbbell presses and 4 sets of alternating presses and 3 sets each of side and front lateral raises. Do you think this is too much? I constantly hear people talking about overtraining since shoulders get worked on chest and back days.

Not a bad routine, but try this:

• Steep incline (70 degree) dumbbell press supersetted with lateral raises (4×10, 8, 6 reps  — go moderate to heavy weight on press and moderate on laterals — intense effort without risking injury)
• Military press supersetted with bentover lateral raise (4 x 6-8 reps)

Soreness comes with sensible intensity, full range-of-motion, tight contractions and heavy eccentrics. Work hard, don’t kill yourself, eat right always.

Your pressing idea is not a good routine: too much pressing. Remember, chest pressing is also front deltoid work. Train delts and chest twice a week with an accent on the shoulders. Heavy and frequent benching is murder of the shoulders. Think dumbbell flat and low-incline presses and cable crossovers.

Overtraining is a potential problem, and reading about it is a real problem. You’ll have to sort this out yourself as you press on — how to finesse your workouts according to your personal and particular needs. You’re in charge.

Be aware, be alert. Train, live, learn and grow.

Go… Godspeed… Dave

I am just starting to feel my 47-year-old body before and after workouts and am now struggling with shoulder pain after I do bench presses and some lateral raises. I am now about 2 weeks of not doing anything for my chest to hopefully stave off the pain in my shoulders, and the lateral raises have been stopped as well. When you say you do the raises one at a time, do you still use the same amount of weight on each side?

Drop the bench press for a while (or for good) and try dumbbell presses at various degrees of incline (the lower, the more pec — the higher, the more deltoid). Better muscle engagement, less joint aggravation.

One-arm laterals (sidearm) are done while holding a post for body stability and raising the weight in a groove (sideways to forward) that pleases you, starting with a light weight to warm up and assess the action. With each successive set, increase the weight or the reps per set to suit your preferences (4-5 sets in the 6-to-12 range). As you become familiar with the movement, you can go heavier and use more body thrust, even approaching a one-arm-dumbbell clean-like motion. The exercise can get serious.

Use the same weight on both sides unless you’re involved in an critical rehab program.

Be sensible always.

Godspeed… Dave

I am 60 and have shoulder pain. The doc said little cartilage left in the shoulders, probably from years of weight training and/or osteoarthritis.  I may be a future candidate for shoulder replacements.  In the interim is there any workout you can suggest that minimizes direct shoulder movements?  

Slim pickens. Get to know your pulley and cable apparatus for a wide range of extension and crossover movements, most of which you invent as you apply yourself to the resistance of various handle arrangements… tucks, pull-ins, one- and two-handed chest crossovers, overhead triceps extensions and any variations of those sample exercises as possible… from where you pull to where you extend, stretch, tug or raise.

At 67 and a vic of several surgeries, I like one-arm lateral raises to front and side, focused bar and dumbbell curls, various pull downs, seated lat rows, one-arm dumbbell rows, stiff-arm dumbbell pullover, any and all core, abdominal and leg work.
Some machines are friendly toward over-used shoulders… snoop around.
Use light weights, warm-up big time, be smooth and creative in exercise engagement, go moderate here and there, where and when you can, and rest lots.

Go sensibly and consistently… Godspeed… Dave

How effective are dumbbell pullovers for upper chest? What do you advise?

Not very. Each of us responds differently to the various exercises. Bent-arm pullover and press has possibilities, especially the point of transition from pullover to pressing, but it’s for young gorillas.

• Straight-arm pullovers accompany chest workouts very well, my favorite superset being DB incline and straight-arm pullover. Upper pec area is tough to engage unless one has the cool structural mechanics.
• Try steep DB inclines for upper pec and shoulder combination, variations of dips on the dip machine , cable crossovers (one-arm or two-arm) positioning yourself for upper chest engagement — lean forward and dig in with slightly bent arms and a high groove.
• Try grasping a DB with both hands and raising it from the waist forward and up with straight-out arms to a position slightly above parallel, like a forward lateral. Lower sorta slowly, focusing on entire pec region. The crushing effect loads the chest. Start light and go up the rack toward heavy. (4,5 sets X 10, 8, 6 rep range)
•  I don’t like Oly bar pressing, flat or incline. Shoulders beware!

We press on… we never quit… Godspeed… DD