Dave Draper’s Musclebuilding Q&A

I’ve started reading Dick Tyler’s West Coast Bodybuilding Scene on my Kindle and I’m really enjoying it. I started training back in 1979 and Arnold, Zane and you were my idols early on. The cover photo of Arnold’s Education of a Bodybuilder was and is an inspiration. I grew up in MN and always wanted to go to Muscle Rock where that photo was taken. I’ve lived in CA now for more than 20 years and I haven’t been able to find out where it is. You made a reference to Muscle Rock in one of the captions in West Coast Bodybuilding Scene. Could you tell me the location of Muscle Rock and how to get there?

Gee, Muscle Rock might be a shopping center by now.

It’s up a couple of miles of one of the winding Malibu Canyon roads off highway one… can’t remember the name offhand. At the top there’s a lonely roadway intersection, a short climb above which is a sun-soaked concrete slab about 20 x 30 feet for fire-prevention utility.

Sunned up there with Zabo or alone in the mid-’60s. I could find it if I needed to… like, in prep for the Mr. Big Boy Contest.

We rock when everyone else rolls… Dave <<< Godspeed >>>

What did you think of Zuver’s? You went there, right?

At least you have some real parts, and more bits and pieces may come. In fact, here’s a nice collection of photos and material the folks in the forum collected, much of it from Ken Leistner, who visited during the heyday, and another great bit from Dick Tyler.

Carry on… Dave Draper

What’s your take on the museum that was created in honor of Arnold? A statue of him was also unveiled in Austria. Is he the greatest bodybuilder of all time? I certainly think so… Arnold once gave me a training tip: To always set my mind when commencing to train.

I doubt if I’d go to the museum if it was down the street. If the statue appeared before me for some odd reason, I’m sure I’d be impressed and have comments to offer… Arnold is great, indeed.

But to me musclebuilding has always been the thing I do — the iron action, the lifting of the weights, the encounter with the steel; the formation and implementation of forceful, muscle-filled movement; the struggle, the overcoming, the discipline and focus, the pain, the relief, the pleasure and joy. These things don’t fit in museums.

God love us… Davio

Have you ever given lectures about motivation and getting people to live better lives through exercise, nutrition and discipline? During the early years at Gold’s Gym, when you worked out there, what was the atmosphere like? Did the gym have a lot of members or just a small number of hardcore enthusiasts? Did you share training techniques or was everyone going their own way? Where there people you trained with and learned from or were you the teacher? How much of a role did nutrition play in those days?

I’ve done a bunch of talks and seminars in the past. These days I just try to remember what I said and follow the precepts with the few minor necessary adjustments, adaptations, moderations and alterations and obliterations.

In the mid-60s only a garage-full (literally) of real muscleheads existed… Gold’s handful of members included a cross section of beach bodies, strong guys and local color. By the end of the ’60s the gym attracted a new and emerging mob. Here comes Arnold and Frank and Franco… A potpourri of enthusiasts, sharing, observing, lifting, playing, biting and learning.

Time, crowds, technology, big biz, pro competition, drugs and carelessness have produced a mess I’m no longer interested in. I’m not old-fashioned, but I am locked into the goodness and honesty and quasi sanity of the old days — chins and dips, sets and reps, bombing and blasting. That doesn’t mean I didn’t trip over my own two feet to come to these conclusions. Nutrition was big and basic.

Tons and miles of training knowledge and research and study… it’s all on computers in universities… nothing’s changed. Lift and learn.Lift and shut up. Lift and be consistent. Lift and drink your Bomber Blend…

God’s speed… Dave

Who was your favorite workout partner back in the late ’60s or early ’7′s and why?

Encouragement goes a long way — back and forth.

By the late ’60s and early ’70s I was done with my training partner phase and found training alone the only way to go. Meeting a time schedule and compromising urges and needs no longer suited my mentality or lifestyle.

I hooked up with Frank Zane in the early mornings during the summer of 1970 before a series of contests later that year. We were compatible for the hour and the short connections served us well.

The Golden Era mob (Arnold, Franco, Frank, etc) often trained together over those grand years, side by side, sharing and kibitzing, but not necessarily in partnership.

Push that iron, savor the good times, endure the tough and be thankful always.

Go… Godspeed… Dave

Hey Dave, if we all could live up to Jack’s way of life, we’d be the King of the Jungle….did you ever meet him?? Hated to hear of his passing!!

I met him a few weeks after I came to California in ’63. He was the speaker at a small high school in southern California. George Eiferman did his skit  — pressing a female student overhead while playing the bugle.  Ralph Kroger did some Oly lifts and I, Mr. NJ, posed like a hamburger.

There were many other occasions — here and there doing this and that. Once was at his 90th in Santa Monica… big gathering… good stuff…

The last time was a party at Schatzi, once Arnold’s restaurant in Santa Monica, when Arnold, then our newly minted Governor, threw a party for a dear old friend, Dot Kawashima. Jack and Armand Tanny shared hilarious stories about training at Muscle Beach in the ’50s.

Rest in peace, brother Jack…

Dave

I’m a writer for a Martial Arts magazine and would like to interview you. Do you have any thoughts about Bruce Lee’s training?

I’m sorry,  but I know nothing about Bruce Lee… only that he was a hero, astonishing, a legend, a master, an original and way ahead of his time.

Go… Godspeed… Dave

Artie Zeller was my uncle. I love reading articles written about Artie and viewing photos taken by him.We have many family photos some real classic pictures of guys like Arnold, Franco, Joe Weider & Frank Richards taken in our home in Brooklyn, pictures with the bodybuilders & Joe date back to around 1968 when Arnold was a kid!!

Good for you! You obviously know what a special guy Artie was. I met him only days after arriving in Santa Monica in the spring of ’63, my home in Jersey only a ferryboat ride from Manhattan. I’d see him regularly at the post office as I carted packages of food supplements from Weider Barbell Co. to be sent around the world. Artie attended my needs on the dock, his workplace a block from mine.

He drove me home each day’s end till I got a car and our friendship grew and grew as the bodybuilding world grew and grew — travel, photos sessions, gatherings, long talks. What a guy — thinker, philosopher, artist, bodybuilder, wit, friend. I miss him a lot and think of him all the time.

Oversized black and white  photos (The Very Best) of the Golden Age muscle guys (Arnold, Franco, Zane and me) taken by Artie at Joe Gold’s gym in 1970 hang in my original gyms in Santa Cruz and Scotts Valley. Great daily inspiration. Long live Artie Zeller. And so I am fond of Josie.

Hope you’re well… Godspeed… Dave

Do you know when “the Dungeon” beneath the hotel first opened? Do you know where the equipment from Santa Monica’s Muscle Beach went upon its closing? Did it go to the Dungeon or down the beach to the Pen in Venice?  Or both?

I arrived in Santa Monica in the spring of 1963 and recollect the Dungeon was three years old then.

The gym moved across Fourth and Broadway less than a block to a storefront location for a year or two before relocating to the underside of the Surf Rider Motel on the beach along Pacific. This is about halfway between the original Muscle Beach location and the Venice pen.

That’s all I recall. Carry on the good fight… Dave

Update from a reader: With reference to the question about the disposition of Muscle Beach equipment, the Dungeon. When the weights came off the beach they were stored by Baron Leone, the wrestler. They then went to the Alley Gym between Ocean Avenue and Second Street, which was the first off beach location for the Muscle Beach Weightlifting Club. Then in the early 1960s (pre-Draper) to the Dungeon at 4th and Broadway.

Did you and Arnold focus more on moderate poundage and the feeling of the movement, or did you concentrate on heavy movements? I have heard that Arnold did train lighter in an effort to zero in on the pump. Was this true in your eyes? He made tremendous improvements to his physique in the early to mid ’70s.

The tale of the Oak is true of all of us. There was a time and a season for heavy work, but moderate+ with fight and form was the rule. Sensible, healthy, effective and sustainable.

Go… God’s speed… DD

I don’t know if you’ll ever share the reasons for dropping from the public eye way back in the early ’70s, but every man has his choices to make. Sometimes they’re made for him.

The reasons are simple:

• Being very good is fun; being the best is too serious
• No money while you’re trying to get there, no money if you do
• Too much ego and too many egos in the immediate atmosphere
• I enjoyed using my muscle and strength as a function in my work-life (counterproductive for championship)
• Too self-centered, which imposed sacrifice on those I loved and liked, including me (time, dedication, dieting, costs)
• I admire muscle and strength building, whereas bodybuilding is a rub…

I forget the other reasons… and excuses…

We lift, by God… DD

I am a fan of yours and would very much like to know what your measurements were at your peak.

I’d be guessing. And guessing is a step away from exaggerating, which is a step away from lying. The tape can be a cruel stretch…

The best I can do is 6′… 230 lbs, size 12 sneaker.

Thanks for your support, my friend.

Go… Godspeed

There are pictures of you using a Power Twister Bar and I am really intrigued. Do you believe they serve a valuable purpose? How about the Bullworker? I’m also interesting in bending steel and other types of strength feats.

The Samson Power Twister is not commendable for any real musclebuilding or power building; more of a pumping tool used backstage before local competition. In fact I thought they were by now designated to their proper place in attics across the globe. The Bullworker I suspect is okay for certain mentalities or if one is limited in space or desperate to exert oneself.

I’ve never applied myself to strongman steel-bending (spikes, coins, horseshoes, bars) and thus have no suggestions.

Start with Dave Whitley at irontamer.com… he’s immersed in bending steel and you might pick up a scent to follow…

Go… Godspeed… Dave

Where was the Dungeon?

The outdoor training area located on the sands of the Santa Monica Beach just south of the pier in the ’40s and ’50s was called Muscle Beach. Sometime at the end of the ’50s, the bodybuilding equipment — the iron — was moved to the cavernous basement of a hotel on the corner of Fourth Street and Broadway in Santa Monica, half a mile away, the new home of the Muscle Beach Gym.

The dark and grim ambiance of the new digs suggested its favorite name, the Dungeon.
Another sunny day in heaven… Godspeed… Draper

** Late edit:  After posting this, we received an email message from a man who was in Santa Monica at the time, who wrote, “Everyone who writes about the move from Muscle Beach seems to skip the Alley Gym era. The weights went first to a location between Ocean and Second entered via the alley. It was a great place to train (I was there in 1960). Subsequently there was a move from the alley to the Dungeon at Fourth and Broadway.“

Who was your favorite workout partner back in the late ’60s, early ’70s and why would you choose him?

I had some no-fame beauties during the dungeon days — Dick Sweet, Rick Joesephson, Fritz Sills — but by the late ’60s and early ’70s I was done with my training partner phase… and found training alone the only way to go.

Meeting a time schedule and compromising urges and needs no longer suited my mentality or lifestyle. I hooked up with Frank in the early mornings during the summer of 1970 before a series of contests later that year. We were compatible for the hour and the short connections served us well.

The Golden Era mob (Arnold, Franco, FZ, etc) often trained together over those grand years, side by side, sharing and kibitzing, but not necessarily in partnership. Unspoken encouragement goes a long way — back and forth.

Dick Tyler wrote of that in this excerpt, Golden Impressions, from his book West Coast Bodybuilding Scene.

Push that iron, savor the good times, endure the tough and be thankful always.

Go… Godspeed… Dave

Didn’t you train for a while with Vince Gironda? I have a copy of Vince’s book “Wild Physique” and found his nutrition information fascinating and far ahead of his time. What are your thoughts on Vince and his knowledge of physique training and nutrition?

Though I knew Vince and occasionally trained in North Hollywood, we seldom share training ideas. Seems each locale — Muscle Beach, Pasadena, Vince’s — had its own variations of the basics, accepted the differences and trained vigorously accordingly.

Our ideas on nutrition run parallel in most areas and his training MOs have been applied coincidentally with purpose and affect. The knowledge — exercise, nutrition, psychological — I’ve picked up, assimilated and retained over time is a big bundle of goods I go through irregularly and recycle.

Over in the forum you’ll find a treasure trove of conversation about Vince’s theories and exercises, as well as these a few discussions about Vince, the man (1 and 2).

Remember: The iron heals, mends, fortifies, toughens, vitalizes, enables, engages, entertains, satisfies, serves, instructs, humbles and makes a good door stop…

I am 55 years old and used to read the magazines when I was a teenager. It must hurt you a little that Arnold got so famous. You must feel like the baseball players of the old days felt as they played baseball for the love of the game.

Good analogy.

Arnold is one of a kind and I feel no envy, only admiration.

I’m content, and when dissatisfaction visits my door, I recognize him as an enemy of my soul. He’s scolded and sent on his way. Gratefulness follows his departure and we feast in the gardens.

Go… God’s strength… Dave

Could you tell me more about Vince Gironda? What was he like in person?

In my day it was cool to know and associate with the guys (Larry Scott, Zabo, Don Howorth, Bill MacArdle, Labra, Mozee and Vince and countless other characters) in a life-does-not-center-around-weights environment. We hung together, but didn’t talk shop.

Remember, I didn’t train at Vince’s North Hollywood Gym and that crew didn’t train at the Muscle Beach Dungeon. We were comrades, an unspoken weave of pride stitching us together. Musclemen were a vapor. To talk muscles amongst each other was not common. Personal training and dietary particulars drifted in the air like elemental particles ­ mythology, hearsay and stories.

Vince was always quiet, serene. I see him sitting on a curbside sharpening a stub of a pencil with a pocket knife. That’s us; we lean against a Hollywood studio’s brick wall (KHJ on Gower) waiting to be called for a screen test for The Gladiator.

He’s wearing a black long-sleeved wool shirt in another impression joining the fun in a car commercial, all of us packed in a sedan as the cameras roll.

He’s sitting back in the corner of his shadowy gym, observing and waiting in a white t-shirt. I heard he doesn’t like squats so I don’t dare do them when I visit if I could — no squat racks for miles. I’m not quiet; I have no mouth. My mind is in a can of tuna… it’s under my shirtsleeve.

Vince likes protein and intensity and perfection and form. Strictness is power. A big ass is the sign of a fool. Full range of motion, extend and contract, isolate, concentrate and it’s no laughing matter. He didn’t say so; he exuded it.

Vince, like many we know, is an image bigger than life. It’s all those years of chins and dips and relentlessness and mystery and acquired admiration.

Shoulda took notes.